Interview with Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio. Not my material.
The Dollar Vigilante
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Jack Blaylock
ABSOLUTELY FASCINATING INTERVIEW WITH POPE FRANCIS, (BEFORE HE BECAME THE POPE) SENT TO ME BE A FIREND TODAY:
Chris Mathews interview with Cardinal Bergoglio before he became Pope Francis. It was never aired and if you read it you can see why.
MATHEWS: But don't you blame various governments around the world for poverty?
BERGOGLIO: Some. Yes.
MATHEWS: But you refuse to blame corporations for their role.
BERGOGLIO: Okay, they also told me you have a degree in economics. No buyer, or seller either, enters into any exchange against his will. It is the nature of the economy. Man is frail, and he makes mistakes and sometimes is greedy and they enter into exchanges that don't help them. Sometimes they become poor, but they made choices. There is nothing the Church can do except try to educate people to become good consumers. Chiefly, for me, it is an education solution on that side. And the Church has more schools around the globe than any other faith. I say teach the people to save their souls, and also teach them how not to become poor. And now not to allow the government to trick them into poverty.
MATHEWS: And you blame government.
BERGOGLIO: No, I blame the self-serving politicians.
MATHEWS: So your solution to poverty is to change the nature of politics?
BERGOGLIO: Please feel free to broadcast this; I don't want to be pope. Friend, you are a socialist and your friends are socialists. And you are the reason for 70 years of misery in Russia and Europe now is seizing in pain from your policies. You believe in the redistribution of wealth and it makes entire populations poor. You want to nationalize everything and bring every human endeavor under your control. You destroy a man's incentive to take care of his very own family, a crime against nature and nature's God. You want social control over populations and incrementally you are making everything against the law. Together this ideology creates more poverty today than all the corporations you vilify have in the history of man.
MATHEWS: I've never heard such from a Cardinal. I'm not sure if you are here to help yourself or disqualify yourself.
BERGOGLIO: Please air this interview. People being dominated by socialists need to know we don't all have to be poor. Some poverty is part of our being cast out of the Garden of Eden. But look at the empire of dependency created by Hugo Chavez. Promising them, tricking them into worship of government and his very own person. Giving them fish but not allowing them to fish. If a fisherman does develop a talent today in Latin America ; he is castigated and his catch stolen by the socialists. He stops?
MATHEWS: You would be the first pope from the Americas .
BERGOGLIO: He stops fishing. I will not be pope, but yes I am from Argentina ..
MATHEWS: And you didn't want to be pope?
BERGOGLIO: God didn't want me to be pope.
MATHEWS: Perhaps he changed his mind.
BERGOGLIO: Ludicrous.
MATHEWS: Okay, I'm sorry. I feel like we are getting off on the wrong path. I'm sorry.
BERGOGLIO: Yes, let's be productive.
MATHEWS: You are a classic conservative Catholic theologian?
BERGOGLIO: Of course there's politics clearly in the Curia throughout the Vatican , but in terms of church teaching, it's not a political institution It's religious.
MATHEWS: I heard people, in fact, media people, "Is this cardinal, is he a liberal? Is he a conservative?"
BERGOGLIO: Tell them please, He's a Catholic. It's no more complicated than that. Catholicism is what it is. You don't have to believe it; you may not. You don't have to follow it; you may not go to Mass. But it's not up to you to modernize us.
MATHEWS: You see no room for reform?
BERGOGLIO: It's not up to any religion, although some do this, 'cause they want the money. They want the membership. But the Catholic Church doesn't do it. It's not up to them to bend and shape and mold itself to accommodate the shrinking depravity of a worldwide culture. It's to provide the exact opposite. It's to provide a beacon out of depravity, socialism and sin, among other things.
MATHEWS: If pope you would be bad news for the left.
BERGOGLIO: I won't be pope. But I am opposed to abortion. I'm opposed to euthanasia. The pro-choice movement is a culture of death. I oppose the demonic same-sex marriage. I oppose gay adoption on the grounds that it is discriminatory to the child. I was exiled by the Cristina Kirchner government, but I hold no grudge. How is this bad news?
MATHEWS: John Paul II rescued you?
BERGOGLIO: He made me the archbishop of Buenos Aires . Yes.
MATHEWS: And so you feel like you owe the Right some sort of repayment?
BERGOGLIO: There are many values? and many types of people. Perhaps it is my interest in mathematics, but I'm the type of human who is interested most in the truth. God gave me a healthy love for the truth. Loyalty is only a virtue if in support of the truth or another important value.
MATHEWS: Cristina Kirchner said you held a grudge.
BERGOGLIO: Funny I've never spoken her name. Not once. And it is a battle of ideas not a battle of two or more people. I'm only concerned with ideas.
MATHEWS: She said you refused to speak up for civil rights violations.
BERGOGLIO: As a spiritual leader, I opposed cultural modernization, and so I became a political enemy. I understand politics as well as I do mathematics
MATHEWS: And the Jesuits, they were eager to cast you out, which they did.
BERGOGLIO: So you are implying that I'm a vengeful priest?
MATHEWS: Do you feel that you need to erase the progress recently made in Latin America ?
BERGOGLIO: I say poverty. You say progress.
MATHEWS: Let's talk about poverty.
BERGOGLIO: Sure, there is voluntary poverty that is virtuous. Many understood the nobility of making themselves independent of the fleeting things of earth. They are distractions from our pursuit of the truth. I have no problem with this. I only oppose involuntary poverty.
MATHEWS: That is what I thought you would say.
BERGOGLIO: Why?
MATHEWS: Because you are a capitalist right?
BERGOGLIO: Yes, I think capital is needed to build a factory, a parochial school, or a church or hospital, all. Do you oppose factories or churches or hospitals?
MATHEWS: Of course not but don't you think the capital is sucked out of peoples hands by greedy business types to pay for these factories?
BERGOGLIO: No, I think people agree, through their economic choices, that some of their money goes to build these. Capital building should be voluntary. Only when the politician confiscates their wealth, to build government factories, government schools, government hospitals; only then do the people not agree. Money given voluntarily is legitimate to build with. Money coerced from the people is not legitimate to build with, because it isn't given voluntarily.
MATHEWS: You are opposed to all government?
BERGOGLIO: No of course not. But it isn't the seat of wisdom in any society I've seen in my life. The best government was created by the Americans, in which they admitted that people are endowed by their creator and most of the administration of society was left to the relationship between God and man. However, slowly that has been eroded by the atheists on the left, who would replace man's relationship with God with a new relationship with an opportunist like Hugo Chavez.
MATHEWS: I just found it fascinating that you were willing to stand up to an entire government in Argentina . You where cast aside. Didn't you care about your career?
BERGOGLIO: Yes, there are people who cave to worldly authority. Even priests.
MATHEWS: But you didn't?
BERGOGLIO: No, I changed nothing. How did I have the power to change anything in church teaching? My opinion? The democrats, seeking votes, only wanted me to change my opinion and legitimize their decadence. I did not, as evidenced by the fact that I was teaching high school math in small isolated town.
MATHEWS: I'm sorry that happened to you.
BERGOGLIO: Why don't you feel for others oppressed for their interest in freedom.
MATHEWS: Freedom isn't punished anywhere, is it?
BERGOGLIO: Certainly it is.
MATHEWS: In Latin America ?
BERGOGLIO: I'm afraid Latin America is lost. The people of the entire area are controlled by a bloc of militant socialist regimes in the region, most prominently Venezuela , Ecuador , Bolivia and Nicaragua . They have a gun pointed at their head. So their heart is now captured. Who will save them at this point?
MATHEWS: So the game is over. Checkmate?
BERGOGLIO: Friend, I've been studying America this month, before the Pope chose to resign. You must not have fear at speaking the truth. It is for the salvation of souls and the recovery of Thomas Jefferson's people. America must not fall to the new painted communism. Even the low information voters don't want America to be sold into slavery. I pray they cast out the money changers in their government! What manner of government is there that condones sin? Abomination upon abomination--giving monies for the murder of children, giving monies for the murder of the elderly! You are an American. Your government, My child, has been infiltrated by men of sin.
MATHEWS: These are pretty radical ideas.
BERGOGLIO: No. Perhaps reactionary. Radical means something different. But a very long time ago, Khrushchev warned, that we cannot expect Americans to fly from capitalism to communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving Americans small injections of socialism until they suddenly awake to find out they have Communism. This is what is happening now in an ancient bastion of freedom. How can America save Latin America when they are slaves to the government themselves?
MATHEWS: I'm having a hard time digesting most of this.
BERGOGLIO: The truth can be painful. You look angry; do you want to stop or ask a question? But you have created a new type of state, the so-called welfare state. This has happened in order to respond to the needs of the politically created poor. However, intervening directly is depriving the original society of its responsibility. Families escape responsibility in the welfare state And churches even escape responsibility. People stop giving to charity and see every poor person as the government's problem. I am a Catholic priest and there are no poor for me to take care of, they are made permanently poor and the property of the politicians.
MATHEWS: I'm not sure this interview is going to work.
BERGOGLIO: You asked and now you will listen, my son. The social assistance state leads to a loss of human energies and an inordinate increase of public agencies, which are dominated more by bureaucratic thinking than by real concern for helping people. Needs are best understood and satisfied by people who are closest to them who act as neighbors and parish members to those in need. It should be added that certain kinds of demands often call for a response which is not simply material but which is capable of perceiving the deeper human need. This is not to mention the welfare states excesses and abuses.
MATHEWS: I think we are done.
BERGOGLIO: Wait. If I speak on the ordination of women, on celibacy, on divorce, will you air this interview and my message?
MATHEWS: No, we are done.
BERGOGLIO: Partially what irritates me to the core is the media's inability to look at anything without looking into the cause of the various problems. People are made poor so they will vote for the very candidates that made them poor.
MATHEWS: Have a nice day and thanks for your time.
CAMERA OFF / END TRANSCRIPT
Jack Blaylock
In the interview I posted, he appears to champion the free market and capitalism. WTF?
Jack Blaylock
Dan Domer - unfortunately I now can't find the source. I may have posted that in too much haste - I was speed internet-ing that day, and now can't remember or find who sent it to me.
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